The evolution of CE 142 – what the flap?

The evolution of CE 142 – what the flap?  (Read 205390 times)

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I have decided to form a separate thread on CE 142 – the so called rifle case shaped bag that was “found” in the south east corner on the 6th floor of the TSBD, referred to as the SN. For the sake of brevity I am not going to reproduce all of the testimonial statement that was present in the original thread as we should all be aware of where to find it. I would like to highlight the main points and will build on it in time.

What did the WC state?

The WC had concluded that LHO brought in his MC rifle into the TSBD in a dismantled state concealed in the bag (CE 142) on the morning of 22/11/1963.

Two people witnessed seeing LHO holding a package that morning – Buell Wesley Frazier and his sister Linnie Mae Randle. Despite being shown the bag and an FBI replica bag, both witnesses estimated the bag that LHO had with him that morning was between 24 – 27.5 inches. The WC rejected their conclusions believing that they were mistaken.

The disassembled MC was 34.8 inches in length, the largest part being the wooden stock.

Jack Dougherty failed to see this package on LHO as he entered into the TSBD at ~ 8 am in the morning. The WC rejected his testimony believing that he was mistaken.

No one saw LHO with a package, or construct one, at any time prior to or on the day of the assassination.

When the SN was found on the 6th floor after the assassination, six detectives failed to see the bag in the SN, yet several detectives (from the crimes scene investigation team predominantly – Day, Studebaker, Johnson, Montgomery) recalled seeing the bag in several states – folded once, folded twice, unfolded.

The bag was dusted for fingerprints using magnetic powder by Studebaker/Day and no latent finger prints were detected. Mr Day wrote on the bag twice – 39 words in total before handing the bag over to the FBI.

The bag was not photographed in situ or during a reconstruction of the crime scene. It was unsure who took ownership of the bag once it was dusted for fingerprints.

The bag was taken to the first floor (presumably with the MC rifle as well as Day stated he never left possession of it) and Mr Day and Mr Studebaker took a sample of paper and tape from the first floor (CE 677).

No one is certain what happened after that but Mr Montgomery was photographed holding a long bag coming out of the TSBD at ~ 3 pm.

This is the story describing what I believe occurred to the bag that Montgomery came out with to eventually become (“evolve”) into CE 142.

Luke Mooney – one of the first Detectives to literally step into the SN fails to see the bag on the floor

Detective Montgomery comes out with a large bag upside down and with an object inserted into it

The object within the bag can not be full length as the bag collapses down to reveal a flat and smooth top. The bag is heavily crinkled down the open end and there are no definitive crease marks to indicate that the bag was folded into a small package as was described by several of the Detectives.

Detective Johnson and Mr Day bring out more evidence found on the 6th floor

A paper and tape sample were taken by Mr Day and Mr Studebaker from the first floor

The FBI make a replica bag to show witnesses 

The paper and tape samples were taken from the first floor of the TSBD

The FBI obtained their paper and tape samples on a Sunday. When Mr Day and Mr Studebaker obtained their samples, it was likely that the employees were told to go home for the afternoon.

A bag was photographed in the FBI Crimes laboratory

Could this be the same bag that Montgomery took out of the TSBD? If it was, then there was an immediate issue – this bag did not possess a flap at one end.

This bag was also photographed being in close proximity to the blanket that was recovered in the Paines garage.

The FBI stained CE 142 with silver nitrate.

A partial palm and finger print was now found on the bag that belonged to Lee Harvey Oswald.

An FBI expert could not associate the bag with having carried CE 139, the MC rifle found on the 6th floor.

An FBI expert detailed how a fold was done to ensure that the bag was strong to hold a heavy object.

The FBI proved that the bag had to have been constructed in situ on the first floor because the tape had specific marking on it meaning it went through a specific tape dispenser that wetted the tape at the same time.

CE 142 matched CE 677.

The FBI sliced the bag so that both sides could be seen at the same time

What is obvious is that the bag had a flap at one end.

My analysis

Was the bag that Montgomery took out CE 142?

Yes it was.  thumbs1xx David Von Pein was correct in his statement  thumbs1xx

What was the issue if it was the same bag? 

CE 142 contains a flap that was taped down that it originally did not possess when Montgomery took it out of the TSBD.

An examination of the end flap that was missing in the FBI crimes laboratory bag

It was very likely that the original bag was folded (to add a flap) and cut to make it appear smaller.

When one considers that there was an inconsistent description of the bag when “found”, and inconsistent description on who handled it, no photograph of it, six Detectives failing to see the bag and no one knows how it ended up in Montgomery’s hands, ended up changing structure to include a flap and definitive crease lines – one is highly suspicious of whether that bag was anywhere near the 6th floor.

Mr Day and Mr Studebaker were on the first floor with the rifle and we know that they took paper and tape. If you had the rifle in your possession wouldn’t you wrap in up to conceal/protect it from the crowd outside? It was already dusted for prints by Day. Yet inexplicably Day walks out with the rifle and Montgomery walks out with the bag.

What the flap is going on?  rofl

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« Last Edit: December 10, 2015, 05:20:57 AM by Tony Fratini »
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I have decided to form a separate thread on CE 142 – the so called rifle case shaped bag that was “found” in the south east corner on the 6th floor of the TSBD, referred to as the SN. For the sake of brevity I am not going to reproduce all of the testimonial statement that was present in the original thread as we should all be aware of where to find it. I would like to highlight the main points and will build on it in time.

What did the WC state?

The WC had concluded that LHO brought in his MC rifle into the TSBD in a dismantled state concealed in the bag (CE 142) on the morning of 22/11/1963.

Two people witnessed seeing LHO holding a package that morning – Buell Wesley Frazier and his sister Linnie Mae Randle. Despite being shown the bag and an FBI replica bag, both witnesses estimated the bag that LHO had with him that morning was between 24 – 27.5 inches. The WC rejected their conclusions believing that they were mistaken.

The disassembled MC was 34.8 inches in length, the largest part being the wooden stock.

Jack Dougherty failed to see this package on LHO as he entered into the TSBD at ~ 8 am in the morning. The WC rejected his testimony believing that he was mistaken.

No one saw LHO with a package, or construct one, at any time prior to or on the day of the assassination.

When the SN was found on the 6th floor after the assassination, six detectives failed to see the bag in the SN, yet several detectives (from the crimes scene investigation team predominantly – Day, Studebaker, Johnson, Montgomery) recalled seeing the bag in several states – folded once, folded twice, unfolded.

The bag was dusted for fingerprints using magnetic powder by Studebaker/Day and no latent finger prints were detected. Mr Day wrote on the bag twice – 39 words in total before handing the bag over to the FBI.

The bag was not photographed in situ or during a reconstruction of the crime scene. It was unsure who took ownership of the bag once it was dusted for fingerprints.

The bag was taken to the first floor (presumably with the MC rifle as well as Day stated he never left possession of it) and Mr Day and Mr Studebaker took a sample of paper and tape from the first floor (CE 677).

No one is certain what happened after that but Mr Montgomery was photographed holding a long bag coming out of the TSBD at ~ 3 pm.

This is the story describing what I believe occurred to the bag that Montgomery came out with to eventually become (“evolve”) into CE 142.

Luke Mooney – one of the first Detectives to literally step into the SN fails to see the bag on the floor

Detective Montgomery comes out with a large bag upside down and with an object inserted into it

The object within the bag can not be full length as the bag collapses down to reveal a flat and smooth top. The bag is heavily crinkled down the open end and there are no definitive crease marks to indicate that the bag was folded into a small package as was described by several of the Detectives.

Detective Johnson and Mr Day bring out more evidence found on the 6th floor

A paper and tape sample were taken by Mr Day and Mr Studebaker from the first floor

The FBI make a replica bag to show witnesses 

The paper and tape samples were taken from the first floor of the TSBD

The FBI obtained their paper and tape samples on a Sunday. When Mr Day and Mr Studebaker obtained their samples, it was likely that the employees were told to go home for the afternoon.

A bag was photographed in the FBI Crimes laboratory

Could this be the same bag that Montgomery took out of the TSBD? If it was, then there was an immediate issue – this bag did not possess a flap at one end.

This bag was also photographed being in close proximity to the blanket that was recovered in the Paines garage.

The FBI stained CE 142 with silver nitrate.

A partial palm and finger print was now found on the bag that belonged to Lee Harvey Oswald.

An FBI expert could not associate the bag with having carried CE 139, the MC rifle found on the 6th floor.

An FBI expert detailed how a fold was done to ensure that the bag was strong to hold a heavy object.

The FBI proved that the bag had to have been constructed in situ on the first floor because the tape had specific marking on it meaning it went through a specific tape dispenser that wetted the tape at the same time.

CE 142 matched CE 677.

The FBI sliced the bag so that both sides could be seen at the same time

What is obvious is that the bag had a flap at one end.

My analysis

Was the bag that Montgomery took out CE 142?

Yes it was.   David Von Pein was correct in his statement

What was the issue if it was the same bag? 

CE 142 contains a flap that was taped down that it originally did not possess when Montgomery took it out of the TSBD.

An examination of the end flap that was missing in the FBI crimes laboratory bag

It was very likely that the original bag was folded (to add a flap) and cut to make it appear smaller.

When one considers that there was an inconsistent description of the bag when “found”, and inconsistent description on who handled it, no photograph of it, six Detectives failing to see the bag and no one knows how it ended up in Montgomery’s hands, ended up changing structure to include a flap and definitive crease lines – one is highly suspicious of whether that bag was anywhere near the 6th floor.

Mr Day and Mr Studebaker were on the first floor with the rifle and we know that they took paper and tape. If you had the rifle int your possession wouldn’t you wrap in up to conceal/protect it from the crowd outside? It was already dusted for prints by Day. Yet inexplicably Day walks out with the rifle and Montgomery walks out with the bag.

What the flap is going on?

Mr Fratini,   Thank you for presenting this posting.  I don’t intend to debate the entire post at this time.  My primary motive for responding is to express my gratitude to you for posting a very good photo of what the cops IMAGINED TO BE  a ““SNIPER’S NEST”  The first photo you show is CE 509 ) and it is an accurate photo of the so called “sniper’s nest” as it appeared after the shooting.  Notice the shadow being cast on the box,  by the bottom sash of the window.  ANY PHOTO WHICH SHOWS A BOX ON THE WINDOW SILL IS A FAKE

————————-

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I have decided to form a separate thread on CE 142 – the so called rifle case shaped bag that was “found” in the south east corner on the 6th floor of the TSBD, referred to as the SN. For the sake of brevity I am not going to reproduce all of the testimonial statement that was present in the original thread as we should all be aware of where to find it. I would like to highlight the main points and will build on it in time.

What did the WC state?

The WC had concluded that LHO brought in his MC rifle into the TSBD in a dismantled state concealed in the bag (CE 142) on the morning of 22/11/1963.

Two people witnessed seeing LHO holding a package that morning – Buell Wesley Frazier and his sister Linnie Mae Randle. Despite being shown the bag and an FBI replica bag, both witnesses estimated the bag that LHO had with him that morning was between 24 – 27.5 inches. The WC rejected their conclusions believing that they were mistaken.

The disassembled MC was 34.8 inches in length, the largest part being the wooden stock.

Jack Dougherty failed to see this package on LHO as he entered into the TSBD at ~ 8 am in the morning. The WC rejected his testimony believing that he was mistaken.

No one saw LHO with a package, or construct one, at any time prior to or on the day of the assassination.

When the SN was found on the 6th floor after the assassination, six detectives failed to see the bag in the SN, yet several detectives (from the crimes scene investigation team predominantly – Day, Studebaker, Johnson, Montgomery) recalled seeing the bag in several states – folded once, folded twice, unfolded.

The bag was dusted for fingerprints using magnetic powder by Studebaker/Day and no latent finger prints were detected. Mr Day wrote on the bag twice – 39 words in total before handing the bag over to the FBI.

The bag was not photographed in situ or during a reconstruction of the crime scene. It was unsure who took ownership of the bag once it was dusted for fingerprints.

The bag was taken to the first floor (presumably with the MC rifle as well as Day stated he never left possession of it) and Mr Day and Mr Studebaker took a sample of paper and tape from the first floor (CE 677).

No one is certain what happened after that but Mr Montgomery was photographed holding a long bag coming out of the TSBD at ~ 3 pm.

This is the story describing what I believe occurred to the bag that Montgomery came out with to eventually become (“evolve”) into CE 142.

Luke Mooney – one of the first Detectives to literally step into the SN fails to see the bag on the floor

Detective Montgomery comes out with a large bag upside down and with an object inserted into it

The object within the bag can not be full length as the bag collapses down to reveal a flat and smooth top. The bag is heavily crinkled down the open end and there are no definitive crease marks to indicate that the bag was folded into a small package as was described by several of the Detectives.

Detective Johnson and Mr Day bring out more evidence found on the 6th floor

A paper and tape sample were taken by Mr Day and Mr Studebaker from the first floor

The FBI make a replica bag to show witnesses 

The paper and tape samples were taken from the first floor of the TSBD

The FBI obtained their paper and tape samples on a Sunday. When Mr Day and Mr Studebaker obtained their samples, it was likely that the employees were told to go home for the afternoon.

A bag was photographed in the FBI Crimes laboratory

Could this be the same bag that Montgomery took out of the TSBD? If it was, then there was an immediate issue – this bag did not possess a flap at one end.

This bag was also photographed being in close proximity to the blanket that was recovered in the Paines garage.

The FBI stained CE 142 with silver nitrate.

A partial palm and finger print was now found on the bag that belonged to Lee Harvey Oswald.

An FBI expert could not associate the bag with having carried CE 139, the MC rifle found on the 6th floor.

An FBI expert detailed how a fold was done to ensure that the bag was strong to hold a heavy object.

The FBI proved that the bag had to have been constructed in situ on the first floor because the tape had specific marking on it meaning it went through a specific tape dispenser that wetted the tape at the same time.

CE 142 matched CE 677.

The FBI sliced the bag so that both sides could be seen at the same time

What is obvious is that the bag had a flap at one end.

My analysis

Was the bag that Montgomery took out CE 142?

Yes it was.   David Von Pein was correct in his statement

What was the issue if it was the same bag? 

CE 142 contains a flap that was taped down that it originally did not possess when Montgomery took it out of the TSBD.

An examination of the end flap that was missing in the FBI crimes laboratory bag

It was very likely that the original bag was folded (to add a flap) and cut to make it appear smaller.

When one considers that there was an inconsistent description of the bag when “found”, and inconsistent description on who handled it, no photograph of it, six Detectives failing to see the bag and no one knows how it ended up in Montgomery’s hands, ended up changing structure to include a flap and definitive crease lines – one is highly suspicious of whether that bag was anywhere near the 6th floor.

Mr Day and Mr Studebaker were on the first floor with the rifle and we know that they took paper and tape. If you had the rifle int your possession wouldn’t you wrap in up to conceal/protect it from the crowd outside? It was already dusted for prints by Day. Yet inexplicably Day walks out with the rifle and Montgomery walks out with the bag.

What the flap is going on?

Mr Fratini….. You opened this thread with this statement…….“I have decided to form a separate thread on CE 142 – the so called rifle case shaped bag”

But nowhere in the post do you show a   RIFLE CASED SHAPED BAG

This is not meant as criticism or to disparage your work……  What I am attempting to point out is the cops originally said that they found a gun case shapedbag in the building and that is how they believed that the dirty little back shootin, coward, commie LEE HARVEY OSSSSWALD got the rifle into the building.

But no gun case SHAPED bag was ever produced…..

Anybody who is familiar with rifles or shotguns knows that a Gun Case is  TAPERED   small at the muzzle end and bigger at the butt end.

Detective Day is on record as saying that he found such a “GUN CASE SHAPED BAG”  and picked it up and turned to Roy Truly and asked him if he had ever seen that before.   Truly said he had never seen it.     Day folded that GUN CASE SHAPED bag up and put it in his pocket, never to be seen again…….

WHY?????

————————-

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I have decided to form a separate thread on CE 142 – the so called rifle case shaped bag that was “found” in the south east corner on the 6th floor of the TSBD, referred to as the SN. For the sake of brevity I am not going to reproduce all of the testimonial statement that was present in the original thread as we should all be aware of where to find it. I would like to highlight the main points and will build on it in time.

What did the WC state?

The WC had concluded that LHO brought in his MC rifle into the TSBD in a dismantled state concealed in the bag (CE 142) on the morning of 22/11/1963.

Two people witnessed seeing LHO holding a package that morning – Buell Wesley Frazier and his sister Linnie Mae Randle. Despite being shown the bag and an FBI replica bag, both witnesses estimated the bag that LHO had with him that morning was between 24 – 27.5 inches. The WC rejected their conclusions believing that they were mistaken.

The disassembled MC was 34.8 inches in length, the largest part being the wooden stock.

Jack Dougherty failed to see this package on LHO as he entered into the TSBD at ~ 8 am in the morning. The WC rejected his testimony believing that he was mistaken.

No one saw LHO with a package, or construct one, at any time prior to or on the day of the assassination.

When the SN was found on the 6th floor after the assassination, six detectives failed to see the bag in the SN, yet several detectives (from the crimes scene investigation team predominantly – Day, Studebaker, Johnson, Montgomery) recalled seeing the bag in several states – folded once, folded twice, unfolded.

The bag was dusted for fingerprints using magnetic powder by Studebaker/Day and no latent finger prints were detected. Mr Day wrote on the bag twice – 39 words in total before handing the bag over to the FBI.

The bag was not photographed in situ or during a reconstruction of the crime scene. It was unsure who took ownership of the bag once it was dusted for fingerprints.

The bag was taken to the first floor (presumably with the MC rifle as well as Day stated he never left possession of it) and Mr Day and Mr Studebaker took a sample of paper and tape from the first floor (CE 677).

No one is certain what happened after that but Mr Montgomery was photographed holding a long bag coming out of the TSBD at ~ 3 pm.

This is the story describing what I believe occurred to the bag that Montgomery came out with to eventually become (“evolve”) into CE 142.

Luke Mooney – one of the first Detectives to literally step into the SN fails to see the bag on the floor

Detective Montgomery comes out with a large bag upside down and with an object inserted into it

The object within the bag can not be full length as the bag collapses down to reveal a flat and smooth top. The bag is heavily crinkled down the open end and there are no definitive crease marks to indicate that the bag was folded into a small package as was described by several of the Detectives.

Detective Johnson and Mr Day bring out more evidence found on the 6th floor

A paper and tape sample were taken by Mr Day and Mr Studebaker from the first floor

The FBI make a replica bag to show witnesses 

The paper and tape samples were taken from the first floor of the TSBD

The FBI obtained their paper and tape samples on a Sunday. When Mr Day and Mr Studebaker obtained their samples, it was likely that the employees were told to go home for the afternoon.

A bag was photographed in the FBI Crimes laboratory

Could this be the same bag that Montgomery took out of the TSBD? If it was, then there was an immediate issue – this bag did not possess a flap at one end.

This bag was also photographed being in close proximity to the blanket that was recovered in the Paines garage.

The FBI stained CE 142 with silver nitrate.

A partial palm and finger print was now found on the bag that belonged to Lee Harvey Oswald.

An FBI expert could not associate the bag with having carried CE 139, the MC rifle found on the 6th floor.

An FBI expert detailed how a fold was done to ensure that the bag was strong to hold a heavy object.

The FBI proved that the bag had to have been constructed in situ on the first floor because the tape had specific marking on it meaning it went through a specific tape dispenser that wetted the tape at the same time.

CE 142 matched CE 677.

The FBI sliced the bag so that both sides could be seen at the same time

What is obvious is that the bag had a flap at one end.

My analysis

Was the bag that Montgomery took out CE 142?

Yes it was.   David Von Pein was correct in his statement

What was the issue if it was the same bag? 

CE 142 contains a flap that was taped down that it originally did not possess when Montgomery took it out of the TSBD.

An examination of the end flap that was missing in the FBI crimes laboratory bag

It was very likely that the original bag was folded (to add a flap) and cut to make it appear smaller.

When one considers that there was an inconsistent description of the bag when “found”, and inconsistent description on who handled it, no photograph of it, six Detectives failing to see the bag and no one knows how it ended up in Montgomery’s hands, ended up changing structure to include a flap and definitive crease lines – one is highly suspicious of whether that bag was anywhere near the 6th floor.

Mr Day and Mr Studebaker were on the first floor with the rifle and we know that they took paper and tape. If you had the rifle int your possession wouldn’t you wrap in up to conceal/protect it from the crowd outside? It was already dusted for prints by Day. Yet inexplicably Day walks out with the rifle and Montgomery walks out with the bag.

What the flap is going on?

Mr Fratini….. You opened this thread with this statement…….“I have decided to form a separate thread on CE 142 – the so called rifle case shaped bag”

But nowhere in the post do you show a   RIFLE CASED SHAPED BAG

This is not meant as criticism or to disparage your work……  What I am attempting to point out is the cops originally said that they found a gun case shaped bag in the building and that is how they believed that the dirty little back shootin, coward, commie LEE HARVEY OSSSSWALD got the rifle into the building.

But no gun case SHAPED bag was ever produced…..

Anybody who is familiar with rifles or shotguns knows that a Gun Case is  TAPERED   small at the muzzle end and bigger at the butt end.

Detective Day is on record as saying that he found such a “GUN CASE SHAPED BAG”  and picked it up and turned to Roy Truly and asked him if he had ever seen that before.   Truly said he had never seen it.     Day folded that GUN CASE SHAPED bag up and put it in his pocket, never to be seen again…….

WHY??

You’re shaped as a forum poster, yet you flood this forum with ridiculous, meaningless rants like the one immediately above, and like your rant about Hosty’s interrogation notes proving only to you that Oswald told Fritz and Hosty that Roy Truly displayed three rifles at the TSBD.

A week from today, at the latest, you’ll have one thousand posts under your name, in record time. Many thousands  more of your posts from now, uncoupled from reasonable analysis as your above post, will this forum be better or worse as a consequence of your worthless campaign of distraction?

How many hyperactive posters posting a flood of unsupported, twisted nonsense can a forum accomodate before it is degraded to irrelevance in comparison to its former status as a place to share research and informed opinion? At the Ed Forum, it took only a sex obsessed political partisan and a CIA apologist who never misses an opportunity to remind a dwindling readership that resigned Gen. Walker blah blah blah, all icing on the cakebread by a forum owner aplogizing to the members for not protecting Peter Janney soon enough.

Enough, but I accept that Mr. Cakebread does not understand or care what enough is, or means.

You’re shaped as a forum poster, yet you flood this forum with ridiculous, meaningless rants like the one immediately above, and like your rant about Hosty’s interrogation notes proving only to you that Oswald told Fritz and Hosty that Roy Truly displayed three rifles at the TSBD.

Hmmmmm…You must be referring FBI agent James Hosty’s  hand written note that he jotted down after Lee told them that he had seen the carcano before in Mr. Truly’s office.

Quote……..” Day before yesterday Mr Truly had rifle & 2 others 1st floor outside office”…    Unquote…….

I’m sure due to your dyslexia you will interpret that in some weird fashio,n but most folks can understand what Lee Oswald told agent Hosty…….

————————-

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…………….
Mr Fratini….. You opened this thread with this statement…….“I have decided to form a separate thread on CE 142 – the so called rifle case shaped bag”But nowhere in the post do you show a   RIFLE CASED SHAPED BAGThis is not meant as criticism or to disparage your work……  What I am attempting to point out is the cops originally said that they found a gun case shaped bag in the building and that is how they believed that the dirty little back shootin, coward, commie LEE HARVEY OSSSSWALD got the rifle into the building.

But no gun case SHAPED bag was ever produced…..

Anybody who is familiar with rifles or shotguns knows that a Gun Case is  TAPERED  small at the muzzle end and bigger at the butt end.

Detective Day is on record as saying that he found such a “GUN CASE SHAPED BAG”  and picked it up and turned to Roy Truly and asked him if he had ever seen that before.   Truly said he had never seen it.     Day folded that GUN CASE SHAPED bag up and put it in his pocket, never to be seen again…….

WHY??

You’re shaped as a forum poster, yet you flood this forum with ridiculous, meaningless rants like the one immediately above, and like your rant about Hosty’s interrogation notes proving only to you that Oswald told Fritz and Hosty that Roy Truly displayed three rifles at the TSBD.

A week from today, at the latest, you’ll have one thousand posts under your name, in record time. Many thousands  more of your posts from now, uncoupled from reasonable analysis as your above post, will this forum be better or worse as a consequence of your worthless campaign of distraction?

How many hyperactive posters posting a flood of unsupported, twisted nonsense can a forum accomodate before it is degraded to irrelevance in comparison to its former status as a place to share research and informed opinion? At the Ed Forum, it took only a sex obsessed political partisan and a CIA apologist who never misses an opportunity to remind a dwindling readership that resigned Gen. Walker blah blah blah, all icing on the cakebread by a forum owner apologizing to the members for not protecting Peter Janney soon enough.

Enough, but I accept that Mr. Cakebread does not understand or care what enough is, or means.

Dear Mr Sulky, Thank you for allowing me to enlighten you……. Mr. Cakebread does not understand or care what enough is, or means.

Mr Cakebread understands very well what “ENOUGH”[/b is…….    I had enough of the BS being handed out many years ago……I’m deeply offended when someone offers me a dog turd and tells me it’s a candy bar, and then starts ridiculing me when I refuse to accept their lie.    You talk about ENOUGH!   I’ve had more than ENOUGH!!!

————————-

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…………….
Mr Fratini….. You opened this thread with this statement…….“I have decided to form a separate thread on CE 142 – the so called rifle case shaped bag”But nowhere in the post do you show a   RIFLE CASED SHAPED BAGThis is not meant as criticism or to disparage your work……  What I am attempting to point out is the cops originally said that they found a gun case shaped bag in the building and that is how they believed that the dirty little back shootin, coward, commie LEE HARVEY OSSSSWALD got the rifle into the building.

But no gun case SHAPED bag was ever produced…..

Anybody who is familiar with rifles or shotguns knows that a Gun Case is  TAPERED  small at the muzzle end and bigger at the butt end.

Detective Day is on record as saying that he found such a “GUN CASE SHAPED BAG”  and picked it up and turned to Roy Truly and asked him if he had ever seen that before.   Truly said he had never seen it.     Day folded that GUN CASE SHAPED bag up and put it in his pocket, never to be seen again…….

WHY??

You’re shaped as a forum poster, yet you flood this forum with ridiculous, meaningless rants like the one immediately above, and like your rant about Hosty’s interrogation notes proving only to you that Oswald told Fritz and Hosty that Roy Truly displayed three rifles at the TSBD.

A week from today, at the latest, you’ll have one thousand posts under your name, in record time. Many thousands  more of your posts from now, uncoupled from reasonable analysis as your above post, will this forum be better or worse as a consequence of your worthless campaign of distraction?

How many hyperactive posters posting a flood of unsupported, twisted nonsense can a forum accomodate before it is degraded to irrelevance in comparison to its former status as a place to share research and informed opinion? At the Ed Forum, it took only a sex obsessed political partisan and a CIA apologist who never misses an opportunity to remind a dwindling readership that resigned Gen. Walker blah blah blah, all icing on the cakebread by a forum owner apologizing to the members for not protecting Peter Janney soon enough.

Enough, but I accept that Mr. Cakebread does not understand or care what enough is, or means.

You’re shaped as a forum poster, yet you flood this forum with ridiculous, 

What ridiculous, that’s are forums for to make post Capito Mr. Scully.

There are other forum member here that try to make other people on the forum ridiculous.

Why do you not attack them.

It is not in your LN-SOP or protocol,…. I’m sure.

Best wishes Mr. Scully.

72

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I have decided to form a separate thread on CE 142 – the so called rifle case shaped bag that was “found” in the south east corner on the 6th floor of the TSBD, referred to as the SN. For the sake of brevity I am not going to reproduce all of the testimonial statement that was present in the original thread as we should all be aware of where to find it. I would like to highlight the main points and will build on it in time.

What did the WC state?

The WC had concluded that LHO brought in his MC rifle into the TSBD in a dismantled state concealed in the bag (CE 142) on the morning of 22/11/1963.

Two people witnessed seeing LHO holding a package that morning – Buell Wesley Frazier and his sister Linnie Mae Randle. Despite being shown the bag and an FBI replica bag, both witnesses estimated the bag that LHO had with him that morning was between 24 – 27.5 inches. The WC rejected their conclusions believing that they were mistaken.

The disassembled MC was 34.8 inches in length, the largest part being the wooden stock.

Jack Dougherty failed to see this package on LHO as he entered into the TSBD at ~ 8 am in the morning. The WC rejected his testimony believing that he was mistaken.

No one saw LHO with a package, or construct one, at any time prior to or on the day of the assassination.

When the SN was found on the 6th floor after the assassination, six detectives failed to see the bag in the SN, yet several detectives (from the crimes scene investigation team predominantly – Day, Studebaker, Johnson, Montgomery) recalled seeing the bag in several states – folded once, folded twice, unfolded.

The bag was dusted for fingerprints using magnetic powder by Studebaker/Day and no latent finger prints were detected. Mr Day wrote on the bag twice – 39 words in total before handing the bag over to the FBI.

The bag was not photographed in situ or during a reconstruction of the crime scene. It was unsure who took ownership of the bag once it was dusted for fingerprints.

The bag was taken to the first floor (presumably with the MC rifle as well as Day stated he never left possession of it) and Mr Day and Mr Studebaker took a sample of paper and tape from the first floor (CE 677).

No one is certain what happened after that but Mr Montgomery was photographed holding a long bag coming out of the TSBD at ~ 3 pm.

This is the story describing what I believe occurred to the bag that Montgomery came out with to eventually become (“evolve”) into CE 142.

Luke Mooney – one of the first Detectives to literally step into the SN fails to see the bag on the floor

Detective Montgomery comes out with a large bag upside down and with an object inserted into it

The object within the bag can not be full length as the bag collapses down to reveal a flat and smooth top. The bag is heavily crinkled down the open end and there are no definitive crease marks to indicate that the bag was folded into a small package as was described by several of the Detectives.

Detective Johnson and Mr Day bring out more evidence found on the 6th floor

A paper and tape sample were taken by Mr Day and Mr Studebaker from the first floor

The FBI make a replica bag to show witnesses 

The paper and tape samples were taken from the first floor of the TSBD

The FBI obtained their paper and tape samples on a Sunday. When Mr Day and Mr Studebaker obtained their samples, it was likely that the employees were told to go home for the afternoon.

A bag was photographed in the FBI Crimes laboratory

Could this be the same bag that Montgomery took out of the TSBD? If it was, then there was an immediate issue – this bag did not possess a flap at one end.

This bag was also photographed being in close proximity to the blanket that was recovered in the Paines garage.

The FBI stained CE 142 with silver nitrate.

A partial palm and finger print was now found on the bag that belonged to Lee Harvey Oswald.

An FBI expert could not associate the bag with having carried CE 139, the MC rifle found on the 6th floor.

An FBI expert detailed how a fold was done to ensure that the bag was strong to hold a heavy object.

The FBI proved that the bag had to have been constructed in situ on the first floor because the tape had specific marking on it meaning it went through a specific tape dispenser that wetted the tape at the same time.

CE 142 matched CE 677.

The FBI sliced the bag so that both sides could be seen at the same time

What is obvious is that the bag had a flap at one end.

My analysis

Was the bag that Montgomery took out CE 142?

Yes it was.   David Von Pein was correct in his statement

What was the issue if it was the same bag? 

CE 142 contains a flap that was taped down that it originally did not possess when Montgomery took it out of the TSBD.

An examination of the end flap that was missing in the FBI crimes laboratory bag

It was very likely that the original bag was folded (to add a flap) and cut to make it appear smaller.

When one considers that there was an inconsistent description of the bag when “found”, and inconsistent description on who handled it, no photograph of it, six Detectives failing to see the bag and no one knows how it ended up in Montgomery’s hands, ended up changing structure to include a flap and definitive crease lines – one is highly suspicious of whether that bag was anywhere near the 6th floor.

Mr Day and Mr Studebaker were on the first floor with the rifle and we know that they took paper and tape. If you had the rifle int your possession wouldn’t you wrap in up to conceal/protect it from the crowd outside? It was already dusted for prints by Day. Yet inexplicably Day walks out with the rifle and Montgomery walks out with the bag.

What the flap is going on?

Tony…..Many years ago I saw a photo of LD Montgomery with that big bag. It was taken in front of the TSBD just like the photos you have posted …..EXCEPT……  The curved handle of an umbrella could be seen in his hand.   That sack was covering an Umbrella…..

You’ve done an excellent job of exposing a key lie in the framing of Lee Oswald……

Did you notice that the small lunch sack that Detective Johnson is carrying is covered with finger print powder….But there’s not a trace of finger print powder on the large sack that Montgomery is carrying……    This suggests that the large bag was not really evidence……it was being used to cover the umbrella.

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« Last Edit: November 18, 2014, 10:22:04 PM by Walt Cakebread »
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…………….
You’re shaped as a forum poster, yet you flood this forum with ridiculous, What ridiculous, that’s are forums for to make post Capito Mr. Scully.There are other forum member here that try to make other people on the forum ridiculous.

Why do you not attack them.

It is not in your LN-SOP or protocol,…. I’m sure.

Best wishes Mr. Scully.

Paul, I see you are a sly one…..you’ve figured it all out. I am humbled by your comments.

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……..
You’re shaped as a forum poster, yet you flood this forum with ridiculous, meaningless rants like the one immediately above, and like your rant about Hosty’s interrogation notes proving only to you that Oswald told Fritz and Hosty that Roy Truly displayed three rifles at the TSBD.
……….

You’re shaped as a forum poster, yet you flood this forum with ridiculous, meaningless rants like the one immediately above, and like your rant about Hosty’s interrogation notes proving only to you that Oswald told Fritz and Hosty that Roy Truly displayed three rifles at the TSBD.

Hmmmmm…You must be referring FBI agent James Hosty’s  hand written note that he jotted down after Lee told them that he had seen the carcano before in Mr. Truly’s office.

Quote……..” Day before yesterday Mr Truly had rifle & 2 others 1st floor outside office”…    Unquote…….

I’m sure due to your dyslexia you will interpret that in some weird fashio,n but most folks can understand what Lee Oswald told agent Hosty…….

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Name:    Rob Caprio
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…….
The pattern I see by the likes of Scully and others is that I should just accept a headstone over a ton of official documents and say, “Hey, that is wrong.” I don’t work like that, but Scully obviously does as he accepts headstones for everything. By the way, people can have anything put on headstones, they are literally written in stone but they are not 100% accurate as he claims.This is all nonsense and meant to distract from the main point of the thread and that is something the WC defenders do constantly since they can’t deal with the main point of the thread in the first place. ……

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Name:    Tom Scully
Posts:    1030 (1.813 per day)

Don’t be humbled Tom,… it is a observation of me to reality of the forum and his members, without calling names.

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Cakebread and his sidekick Paul

You see personal attack whatever how many posts.

Nutter speak, Mr. Steve Slogan.

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« Last Edit: November 18, 2014, 09:40:32 PM by Paul Ernst »
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Gentlemen,

it would be fabulous if we can debate the topic on hand rather than disintegrate the thread into personal attacks and insults. Please bring in your knowledge and expertise in discussing the highly contentious CE 142.

I would like to see how a bag that Montgomery took out of the TSBD inherited a flap at one end. It goes to show that even after 50 years we are learning new information – there must be 100’s of photos or footage that we have not seen.

It was the bag that directly linked LHO to the MC. If the bag was NOT present in the SN, it will have massive implications for the case against LHO.  thumbs1xx

Discuss away

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A rather interesting post, Mr. Fratini, thanks for sharing it

I take away the following:

*Mr. Dougherty fails to see any package in tow when Oswald enters that morning.

*and, quote, “No one saw LHO with a package, or construct one, at any time prior to or on the day of the assassination”

Toss in your keen observations in respect to the flap, and something is clearly amiss here.

Time and time again, as with other evidence throughout this case, there never is a natural progression of evidence linking Oswald to anything as much as something else in play, by any other name remains the same.

Alan,

unfortunately we see the same MO all the time when it came to LHO – as soon as the MC was linked to him – party over – no matter what anyone observed or stated to the contrary – all roads led to LHO. End of story.

If is extremely difficult to disentangle the MC with LHO – it was that powerful, no matter where in the TSBD it was found.

So one has to carefully deconstruct the crime scene. CE 142 is a real issue because without a means of transporting in the MC – the DP had nothing, same with the FBI.

It was absolutely essential to link CE 142 with LHO. Right on cue – a finger and palm print appears after two different methods were used – magnetic powder and iodine fumes – zip. Silver nitrate worked a treat.

Considering LHO “handled” the materials to make the bag and transported it – one would have thought that the bag would have been “swimming” in finger prints. At 8 pounds you would exert some force to hold the bag. Bizarre to the max.

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Tony…..Many years ago I saw a photo of LD Montgomery with that big bag. It was taken in front of the TSBD just like the photos you have posted …..EXCEPT……  The curved handle of an umbrella could be seen in his hand.   That sack was covering an Umbrella…..

No doubt it’s being hidden in the same box as the film of Curry saying that Oswald had a coke in his hand and the film of LBJ saying “AH cum tew yew with a havy heart…..Yer president is daid”.

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Gentlemen,

it would be fabulous if we can debate the topic on hand rather than disintegrate the thread into personal attacks and insults. Please bring in your knowledge and expertise in discussing the highly contentious CE 142.

I would like to see how a bag that Montgomery took out of the TSBD inherited a flap at one end. It goes to show that even after 50 years we are learning new information – there must be 100’s of photos or footage that we have not seen.

It was the bag that directly linked LHO to the MC. If the bag was NOT present in the SN, it will have massive implications for the case against LHO.

Discuss away

With all due respect Tony, if you push back against Walt’s response to your OP now, your future threads may be what you expect this
thread to be. If you let it pass, all of your future threads, and this entire forum will be as Walt intends them to be.

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………..
Mr Fratini….. You opened this thread with this statement…….“I have decided to form a separate thread on CE 142 – the so called rifle case shaped bag”

But nowhere in the post do you show a   RIFLE CASED SHAPED BAG

This is not meant as criticism or to disparage your work……  What I am attempting to point out is the cops originally said that they found a gun case shaped bag in the building and that is how they believed that the dirty little back shootin, coward, commie LEE HARVEY OSSSSWALD got the rifle into the building.

But no gun case SHAPED bag was ever produced…..

Anybody who is familiar with rifles or shotguns knows that a Gun Case is  TAPERED   small at the muzzle end and bigger at the butt end.

Detective Day is on record as saying that he found such a “GUN CASE SHAPED BAG”  and picked it up and turned to Roy Truly and asked him if he had ever seen that before.   Truly said he had never seen it.     Day folded that GUN CASE SHAPED bag up and put it in his pocket, never to be seen again…….

WHY??

Your choice….please choose carefully, before Walt transforms the atmosphere to where it doesn’t matter, anymore.
He exerts his influence, 21 times per day here, on average.

Tom,

this is why I posted the caveat to please remain on topic. As Walt pointed out there were many issues regarding the SN and many articles have been written about it.

The damning fact is that there was no in situ photo of the bag that Montgomery was holding in his hand in the SN. I have shown – Montgomery’s bag is indeed CE 142. David Von Pein was correct, except there now is a ton of explanations required to account for it.

We now have the photos of the “intermediate” bag – the one in the FBI crime lab. This explains, to me, what was done to the bag and why it was done.

If there is an alternative explanation – I would appreciate hearing it. CE 677 matching up with CE 142 tightens the timeline and causes even more issues. For the WC, it would of been better for the bag (CE 142) to not have matched with CE 677.  rofl

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Tony…..Many years ago I saw a photo of LD Montgomery with that big bag. It was taken in front of the TSBD just like the photos you have posted …..EXCEPT……  The curved handle of an umbrella could be seen in his hand.   That sack was covering an Umbrella…..

No doubt it’s being hidden in the same box as the film of Curry saying that Oswald had a coke in his hand and the film of LBJ saying “AH cum tew yew with a havy heart…..Yer president is daid”.

John,

the irony was, that it was very likely Montgomery that caused some scratch marks in the interior of CE 142. Since he held the bag upside sown, vital “information” could have been lost. Having the bag next to the blanket (FBI crime lab) was not a good idea as well.

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A rather interesting post, Mr. Fratini, thanks for sharing it

I take away the following:

*Mr. Dougherty fails to see any package in tow when Oswald enters that morning.

*and, quote, “No one saw LHO with a package, or construct one, at any time prior to or on the day of the assassination”

Toss in your keen observations in respect to the flap, and something is clearly amiss here.

Time and time again, as with other evidence throughout this case, there never is a natural progression of evidence linking Oswald to anything as much as something else in play, by any other name remains the same.

I believe Jack Dougherty was telling the truth about seeing no package brought in by Oswald that morning despite the repeated attempts by Mr.Ball to get him to say he did.

Nothing ever wrong with giving credit where it’s due, Mr. Pyne, and in this instance Mr. Dougherty–given his unique vantage point over Ball’s slant tilt–simply chose to tell the truth.

Now that whole flap issue pointed out by Mr. Fratini raises even more concerns here.

Not trying to derail this thread but between BWF and JD’s testimony,one of them is lying about the package,they both can’t be right can they?
I apologize if this has been covered in a previous thread/topic.

There was always the possibility that what ever LHO brought in may have been left in the Northern Annex prior to entering into the first floor. However if he was carrying in his lunch he may of had it tucked into his jacket. However, trying to conceal the bag that Montgomery was carrying – that is another story.

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A rather interesting post, Mr. Fratini, thanks for sharing it

I take away the following:

*Mr. Dougherty fails to see any package in tow when Oswald enters that morning.

*and, quote, “No one saw LHO with a package, or construct one, at any time prior to or on the day of the assassination”

Toss in your keen observations in respect to the flap, and something is clearly amiss here.

Time and time again, as with other evidence throughout this case, there never is a natural progression of evidence linking Oswald to anything as much as something else in play, by any other name remains the same.

I believe Jack Dougherty was telling the truth about seeing no package brought in by Oswald that morning despite the repeated attempts by Mr.Ball to get him to say he did.

Nothing ever wrong with giving credit where it’s due, Mr. Pyne, and in this instance Mr. Dougherty–given his unique vantage point over Ball’s slant tilt–simply chose to tell the truth.

Now that whole flap issue pointed out by Mr. Fratini raises even more concerns here.

Not trying to derail this thread but between BWF and JD’s testimony,one of them is lying about the package,they both can’t be right can they?
I apologize if this has been covered in a previous thread/topic.

There was always the possibility that what ever LHO brought in may have been left in the Northern Annex prior to entering into the first floor. However if he was carrying in his lunch he may of had it tucked into his jacket. However, trying to conceal the bag that Montgomery was carrying – that is another story.

Thank you Mr.Fratini for your input on this issue of BWF vs. JD’s testimony of whether LHO actually entered the TSBD with a long package.
Not knowing the layout of the building,Iv’e always wondered if there was a place Oswald could have stashed the package just inside before being seen by Dougherty.
I guess you’re saying there was such a place?

Definitely – there were two annexes – one on the Northern end and one on the Western end. These were covered spaces. BWF saw LHO enter at the back, he didn’t see what LHO did with what he was carrying. Dougherty “caught a glimpse” of LHO as he entered. I think it would have been highly unlikely that he “missed” seeing the bag that Montgomery came out with in LHO’s hand. Keep that in mind – CE 142 does NOT look like the bag that Montgomery originally took out of the TSBD. It has distinct fold marks, it devoid of creases at the base and now contains a taped flap. However Montgomery’s bag is indeed CE 142  thumbs1xx It has specific identifying marks on it.

Once LHO had entered into the first floor of the TSBD – not one person saw him with any package that day.

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« Last Edit: November 19, 2014, 12:04:49 AM by Tony Fratini »

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